“Even Stalin Did Not Trample Upon Human Rights Like North Korea”

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In seminar for North Korean human rights which was held by Refugees International (RI) on 13th of May, David Hawk, former AI (Amnesty International) US director, told that EU is planning to “submit a resolution about North Korean human rights in UN General Assembly” because “even though UN Commission on Human Rights already adopted the resolution three times, not any progress has been made to improve human rights by North Korean government.”

David Hawk who is a prominent human rights activist and an investigator worked for US Committee for Human Rights in North Korea until 2002 and he is conducting an investigation about North Korean religious freedom in U.S Commission on International Religious Freedom (USCIRF). He visited South Korea to meet defectors and people in religious organizations at the beginning of May. had an interview with him before he leaves South Korea.

– What is the purpose of your visiting this time?

I am conducting an investigation about North Korean religious freedom in USCIRF. Especially, I am conducting an investigation about freedom of ideology, conscience and belief. I am here to listen to expert’s and defector’s opinions related to this matter.

– What have you done mostly in South Korea?

I had interview with 40 defectors who arrived in South Korea recently. I asked them whether they have ever seen religious activity, they have been to religious places, they have been learned about religion in school and working place and they believe something or not.

Most of defectors have never seen religious places

– What was the defector’s reaction?

All of interviewees were low-class people in North Korea. Most of them have never been to Pyongyang and did not know about religious facilities. Even though couple of them has been to Pyongyang, they also answered that they did not know whether there was a church or not.

– As far as I know, you also had an interview with South Korean religious people.

Yes. I did. They have been to religious facilities such as churches or temples in North Korea. It is hard to reveal what I have talked with them. I will open it to public after I finished my report.

– What makes you work for North Korean human rights?

When I worked for U.S. Committee for Human Rights in North Korea as an investigator in 2002, I put my interesting into North Korea investigating about political gulags in North Korea. The Committee selected investigator who are not born in South Korea and do not speak Korean to exclude prejudice. Conducting the investigation, I became to know about the situation of North Korean human rights concretely.

– In terms of North Korean human rights, what is the difference with other countries?

North Korea belongs in totally different category. A regular pattern of severe human rights infringement exists in North Korea. The most outstanding fact is that food, education, occupation, traveling and residence are decided by origin.

North Korea tramples upon human rights for a long time and systemically

Secondly, it is about political suppression. People can not make opposite opinions about politics. Thirdly, it is about detention centers and gulags. The Kim Jong Il regime put people into detention center without trial and imposes forced labor. It is a criminal act which against the international law. It is an offense against Art.7 of the international law.

There was a massacre in Cambodia, Sudan and Rwanda all at once, but North Korea has been trampling upon human rights for a long time and systemically. It is the difference with other countries.

– What is the difference between political gulags in North Korea and the one in East European socialist countries in the past?

First of all, all family members are punished in North Korea. As far as I know, this kind of punishment system was existed during Chosun dynasty in the past. The implicative system is in operation in North Korea. It is contradictory to usual practice of the international law. Not any Communist country punished the offender’s family. Even Stalin did not do that.

– Lots of civil organizations in South Korea are not likely to take an action about human rights problem in North Korea fearing that it might aggravate the relationship between two Koreas.

I partly can understand that NOGs in South Korea act like that. I can understand their opinions which sending food, reunion of dispersed family members and cooperation with North Korea. I can understand their situation which is 40% of population in South Korea could be a target by the arms near the 38th Parallel, so they are likely to control what they are saying and insisting to North Korea.

However, it does not make sense at all for them to find a way to improve human rights in North Korea through interchange between two Korea. It can not be a reason for them not to mention about human rights problem in North Korea because of military situation between two Koreas. When religious people and students started a movement in 1970’s and 1980’s, they asked assistance from outside a lot. When I met those who were detained in gulags in North Korea, they told me that outside assistance is necessary.

High-ranking officials from countries which have a diplomatic relation with North Korea issued human rights problem in North Korea couple of times. When they did that, the relation was not aggravated. Berlin Wall was collapsed in the result of Helsinki Pact. Racial discrimination in South Africa was solved by assistance from outside.

Evaluating the North Korean human rights act by the U.S. is too early

– Some people point out that the North Korean human rights act causes harmful effects without improving human rights in North Korea.

The North Korean human rights act will not cause harmful effects. I do not think it will give a huge help to improve human rights in North Korea, either. It is like a symbolic meaning. Some of things in the act are hard to be carried out. There is no effectiveness to allow North Korean refugees enter into the U.S. In case of broadcasting toward people in North Korea, it would be more effective if South Korea does that rather than the U.S. It is too early to evaluate it concretely.

– Some people point out that human rights problem in North Korea is a socialistic phenomenon. What do you think of it?

System is nothing to do with it. System is something to do with political things. Capitalist countries, socialist countries and even kingdoms participated in conferences for Universal Declaration of Human Rights or other pacts. People from countries which have different system made the standard of human rights.

– What is the most important thing to improve human rights in North Korea?

First of all, informing the fact to outside world is the most important to solve human rights problem in North Korea. Activity of international human rights organizations is necessary as well. There is also a solution by other countries. Once North Korea wants to invest or trade with North America and European countries, for example, those countries can say that North Korea should abide by international human rights law.

In terms of economic cooperation, North Korea needs South Korea and Japan. When we take a broad view, South Korea can exercise an effect upon North Korea using economy as long as the alliance between South Korea and the U.S. is maintained.

– Do you have comments to readers?

I often read in the U.S. It is very interesting. I wish you also read it and get vivid information about North Korea from.