Interview 6
Name: Cho Sook Hee
Sex: Female
Age: Late 40s
Area: South Pyongan Province
Job: Factory worker
(Editor’s note: Cho Suk Hee is a factory cadre, and was careful to appear broadly loyal)
– What is your job?
I work for a machine factory.
– I have heard that factories are not operating well.
Exactly. We are almost at a standstill. We work eight-hour shifts, but that usually amounts to one hour in the morning and two in the afternoon of actual work. Blackouts happen at all hours, so we work when we have power.
– Do you get food or materials from the state?
(Laughing) No. Basically we know that production units (factories and plants that actually produce things) get comparatively better distribution. The smaller the output of a factory, the less distribution it gets. It depends on the work of the factory manager and his management skill. Distribution varies according to production volume.
– You’re saying that factory bosses decide distribution levels?
No. The factory boss follows state regulations. He is basically a trader: if he does well and production happens then the state gives him money accordingly. So the workers there can get distribution.
– How is the food situation?
Food is in very short supply. Most make do with three meals of corn rice per day. Some also make noodles and eat them for dinner. It’s three meals, but it’s not enough. It’s difficult to get by.
– Isn’t it hard just working in a factory?
I make time to do some volunteer work, making noodles, say, or grinding corn or wheat into flour. I’m not going into the market.
– Are there starving people too?
(In a whisper) A lot. But there are many more people who live on one meal a day. So there are people who die of malnutrition.
– How does it compare to the March of Tribulation of the late 1990s?
Things seem worse now. Especially since the currency redenomination things have been worse than during the March of Tribulation. Before that we got distribution from the state and were given the things we needed to live. Wages were also as normal. We relied on the state and lived normally, but then the March of Tribulation began.
Back then we didn’t know how to trade, how to sell things and how to make money. Because of that, many died. That time has passed now, and because we have experience we don’t work in factories to live, we do other things.
– What do you think of the currency redenomination?
I think that had the state permitted the spread of the market after its introduction, it would have been successful. We were also hopeful following the currency redenomination. But things have gotten difficult now.
– How is life for cadres?
It’s OK. But if you listen to what Chinese people say then our cadres allegedly live really well; however, this isn’t true. If they want to go up the ranks they have to study and work hard. So there are people in a bad situation; not getting anything from the state, doing illegal stuff on the side.
– Cadres also loan money to people, or so I have heard.
That’s not just cadres; normal people do it too.
– How do people survive?
Most trade. Things like pigs, dogs and chickens are reared and sold. If we want to live, we have to do our jobs, some trading and a few side-jobs, too.
– What is the price of pork?
Around 2,500 won per kilo.
– I hear the price of rice is going up.
Non-glutinous rice is around 2,500 won a kilo. Price rises mean trade is going well. It means that a lot of people are buying it.
– What is public opinion of Kim Jong Eun?
I don’t know what public opinion of the leadership is. And he has yet to become leader…
– What do the people think of Kim Jong Il?
The common view of Kim Jong Il is good. It is said that our country’s current state is the fault of mid-level cadres. I agree with this, of course. Having never met General Kim Jong Il, I cannot say whether he is bad or not. I just think that some workers are distorting things a lot, and so our lives are difficult.
– Aren’t you saying that lower level cadres must manage the situation better?
Actually that’s right. People lower down have to take more interest.
– The people must be discontented with the cadres.
The cadres have distorted industry in many ways. Because of them, the Party and the people and the Suryeong and the people cannot act together.
– Are you saying that Kim Jong Il’s reputation is good?
When the Suryeong was alive, the state was doing fine. There were no problems with production. After his passing, production began to deteriorate. From then, because of problems with production our lives worsened. So, if you ask me, things are now much worse now than under Kim Il Sung. What are lower level workers supposed to think of the leaders of the people?
Because people don’t work properly, much damage has been done. We must farm for the good of all, but instead they take what they want and there is not much left. The remainder is what we have to live on.
– Aren’t you accusing mid-level cadres of corruption?
No, no. How could I do that? However… I often go to farming areas, so let’s use that as an example. If you want to grow crops you need oil. You need tractors, and there isn’t enough oil. They need 10 drums, but can’t get more than 5. So they can’t really farm. But even so they need to farm, so they must borrow the oil from somewhere else.
And there is also no fertilizer, because the state doesn’t give them any. Plus, people need to eat enough to work don’t they? If you want to farm, then you need fertilizer, there isn’t enough so when it comes time to harvest in the autumn the harvest is no good. So in order to fertilize the soil, you use whatever you can. And you underreport the amount produced to the state. Because of all this the farm managers work like crazy.
– Do people feel dissatisfied with Workers’ Party members?
Well, I don’t know what you mean by that. Absolutely not about Party members. Our ideology is really good. We are hungry now, yes, but the state is in difficulties so we must overcome this, and they are leading.
– What of the reaction of the people to the currency redenomination?
Not good. Discontent exploded. Because the state did it, we couldn’t say anything. I was really disappointed. Before, I was doing this and that, then the currency reform happened. The state just stopping us from living.
– If so, surely the people must have been bursting with discontent. Wasn’t there any dissenting graffiti?
I haven’t seen it. If you say discontent, that’s a difficult feeling. You can’t express it, and among close friends it comes out.
– Do you know of South Korean food aid?
I know. I have received it directly. I think it was in the early 2000s. The sack had the words ‘Republic of Korea’ written on the side of it, so I knew it was a rice aid from the South. At the time I also received corn and wheat flour. The corn was 100% American and the rice Korean.
– I have heard that people in the northern regions never received any rice.
The way the state gives distribution is that it goes first to those areas with big state construction industries; core production units, coal mines and power stations. Its unavoidable, we have to earn money to survive. The Chosun army is not at fault, it doesn’t all go to them.
My child is in the army; that place, what it must be like… My child has to eat, and has to have a home. All countries need an army, and well… food must go to the army, too. The fact that they don’t get more food is worse.
– Do you want to keep receiving aid from the international community?
Of course. It’s good.
– Do you know about ‘bingdu’?
Drugs. No.
– Since the emergence of Kim Jong Eun have there been any notable changes?
How can the normal people know such things? What could have changed?!
– Have there been any campaigns to idolize Kim Jong Eun or any political slogans?
No special slogans, but he is called the ‘Young General’. I have heard he is good with CNC technology. He’s just been unveiled as the successor; it’s not time for propaganda yet.
– Have you seen him in the flesh? Do you have any expectations?
He looks just like the Suryeong. He looks very much like him, so I am expectant. I’m not sure whether our lives will stabilize, but are we not at the start of the 2012 ‘Strong and Prosperous State’? I am not sure what that means, but we hope for that and that alone. We aim for it, to do justice to the 100th birthday of the Great Leader; we will see what happens.
– Do you think things will improve in the ways that the authorities say in the propaganda?
Like the slogan, the only road is the one you make for yourself. I don’t expect things from the state. That said, people don’t say they think the strong and prosperous nation cannot happen. Just that life is so difficult; we worry that it may not be possible.
– How do you think people will react if it does not happen?
Before now people didn’t speak about their misgivings. Speaking politically was a solitary activity. If two people spoke and were caught that was the end, so people didn’t. But after the currency redenomination, people would meet in twos and threes and mutter to each other. So, if it all comes to nothing, I worry maybe whether that two or three will become twenty or thirty.
Of course we must create the strong and prosperous state, but things are just too difficult for us right now. Making ends meet is a constant trouble. In a word, this is our darkest night. Like the darkest of nites, without a moon in the sky. But on a dark nite, we must light a lamp with joy and go forward to the new dawn! If the state doesn’t light this lamp, then there is a big problem.
In the end, it’s all about whether we fall into a pale full of dung, fall off a cliff, get mired in thorns, live painful lives… Obviously, a new day will dawn; we just have to sleep for a few nights while it comes. Nothing to be sad about.
– I hear the number of wandering orphan children has increased.
We are not without them. But not just orphans, even families are going that way. People are getting really poor. It’s disturbing.
– What is needed most?
Food. We need things to eat.
– Can discontent develop into riots?
It’s pretty difficult.
– Aren’t people much more open about their discontent than before?
Even so, it’s not to the level of rioting yet. The ideology is too strong.
– What do you think of people who have chosen to flee to the South?
I think it’s bad. Of course there must be many reasons for it, but aren’t those people betraying our country? Of course there are people who are smarter than normal people so they go. Even so, I will stay here and contribute to the construction of a better society. I have a family, what would happen if I just threw them away and went south? I have parents, kids and a husband, what would happen if I went down there?
Even if I am hungry, I want the best for my country; above all I want to be with my family. 70% of the people who go don’t fit in here; do they really think they will fit in there? Scientists and engineers who go probably do well for themselves but I don’t see normal people doing well. If you go to South Korea, you get money, house and resettlement funds, but the question is, how can you make good use of all that?
– What do you think of reform and opening?
Reform is good. Opening would be great. Everyone around here wants opening. We look at what we produce here and we are surprised by how bad it all is, and we look at things made abroad and in China and see good it is.
– What do you think of reunification?
Basically total reunification would be best. If exchanges between the North and the South started then Chosun’s resources could go down and thus the economy of Chosun could go up; how good that would be.
– What do you think is the reason why you can’t open?
Isn’t it because if we open, nobody will live in Chosun anymore? Because Chosun doesn’t even have food, and there is so much to eat in China, surely everyone will up and go. We don’t open because if we did, there’d be nobody left here.
I have no idea what I would do if we opened. All I do is work to live, I get nothing from the state and the state isn’t supporting me, I have to do things for myself. Doing it for yourself is the way things are going.
But in the case of many counties, they produce food and send it to the military, but then that lot of food goes somewhere so we have to send more. My children are in the military so if they ask, I send them food. All parents are the same in that regard.
– I have heard that many say a war would be best.
Yes, some do. It’s a case of, “Just get it over with.” Die of starvation or die in a war, like that. South Korea has so much, so they don’t want it. We have nothing. One of our party’s slogans is ‘do not fear war’, but it’s not something I hope for. Cadres don’t want it, either. They have a lot to lose.
– Are there people who blame Kim Jong Il for their situation?
Indirectly, yes.
– Did you know about Kim Jong Nam or Kim Jong Eun’s lineage before you came to China?
I didn’t know about Kim Jong Nam, and I didn’t know anything at all about Kim Jong Eun.
– What were you most surprised about when you came over to China?
I heard a lot about Kim Jong Il’s family, it was very surprising. Kim Jong Il has many wives, and I heard about his sons, Kim Jong Nam, Kim Jong Chol and Kim Jong Eun. I remember I wondered at the time whether this was true or just some childish talk on the part of South Koreans. It was because I thought at the time that South Koreans lie a lot.
But if you don’t believe them, Chinese people would say words to the effect, “You are still like that? Why can’t you see the truth? Pitiful.” I began to realize the truth. I didn’t know that Kim Jong Il had so many women. I thought it wasn’t my business to know about the president’s situation, but I couldn’t understand how he could have so many women.
– Have you seen leaflets before (sent over from the South to the North)?
Yes, a long time ago, in the 1980s I think. Even if the leaflets come over, the army is mobilized to gather them up.
– Nowadays they are attached to balloons so they fly over.
I know. However I think that’s a rather childish method. Nothing will be achieved like that.
– Does everyone have a DVD player now?
Yes, everyone watches DVDs here. If you watch South Korean stuff you can get into a lot of trouble, so I watch a lot of Soviet and Chinese films, but can’t watch South Korean things.
– I have heard though that only cadres have DVD players.
No, there are so many, everyone has one. Traders smuggle them in and sell them to normal people. I don’t know have much they cost, but they are expensive. Traders can name their price.
– If they are expensive why do you buy them? Surely buying food would be better?
There are people with the means, and there are people with curiosity for something new. So, wanting to get something new, they buy it. Watching DVDs is a trend, you try not to follow, but if you have just enough money to, you end up buying it. We use batteries to watch.
– Power is unreliable?
Yes, so every household has portable batteries.
– You mean a car battery?
Yes, we use car batteries, and smaller ones too. We recharge them when the power comes back on.
– When is that?
At home, from 8 to 10 in the evening when the TV news is on. Because factories produce goods, they get power. So when a factory is running, people plug in their batteries to charge when they work, and unplug them when they leave.
– Did you hear anything about the South when you went to school in the North?
Nothing.
– I hear that young people are imitating things from South Korean culture?
Yes. They wear trousers that are tight around the bum. Young people take so much care of their hair style, hair color and appearance. Most youngsters are like that.
– I hear students just play South Korean songs without the lyrics?
They want to dance, so they play them that way, yes.
– If you have a recharger, I guess you could watch DVDs whenever you want.
Yes, with a recharger you can watch both TV and use recording devices.
– How do cadres live?
The state gives the same amount to cadres as to workers, so how do you think cadres could be living so well? People with the wherewithal to do so live well. What percentage of people is that?
– I hear that there are stores of military supplies.
Yes.
– Are there any unique trends among young people?
Clothing and such go in trends. My generation liked to wear baggy clothes, but younger people mimic the South Korean style, liking tighter clothes. If I buy my daughter baggy clothes she’ll tell me they are old-fashioned. There are many clothes in the market and there are also places that can make clothes tighter.
The tailor does what he is told, fitting the clothes to the demands of the customer, so patrols cannot stop it. They try to enforce the regulations, so some people avoid them they bypassing main roads. My daughter hasn’t worn that kind of clothes enough yet to be caught. Young men also wear clothes with English writing on them. I suppose if they knew what it said they would try and stop it, but they don’t, so they can’t.
– Do lots of people have cell phones?
No, only people who are doing really well. You can only connect using a Chosun-made phone. I have heard of the brand Samsung Anycall.
– How did you learn of these trends?
I hear a lot from my own generation. The clothes the young wear come from China. I learnt about it whilst buying things at the market. South Korean makeup and medicine is very expensive. And there is also Japanese stuff.
– There must be lots of old people living alone.
Loads. It’s very rare to see them amusing themselves in the village or park, because as long as they can move then they sell things like seasonings or sunflower seeds. It isn’t much, but they want to give their children a little money or some food. There are many old people who commit suicide, too.
If there is no money, because there is no other way, they commit crimes, and if they are caught they just say ‘let’s just die’. Because of the way things are, people divorce, they also steal and kill themselves; it’s not clear why, but there are so many things that make you sad.
– Is patriarchy still strong in the North?
Yes. Women work hard and obey their husbands at home.
– It’s very different to South Korea.
Even though things are tough, there is the idea that you should obey your husband. And spousal violence is not even a big deal. People believe that what happens in the home is no one else’s concern.
– If you compare Kim Il Sung with Kim Jong Il…
Kim Il Sung is our loving father. At New Year’s celebrations he would hug each child in turn and ask them what their wish was, they would say they wanted him to do his all for the country. He would go to city, village and beach; if there was hard work to do or someone desired for something he would fix it there and then, but Kim Jong Il is not like that.
20 years of anti-Japanese struggle, even though we constructed socialism for 20 years, we still live so badly, we don’t know why. This is frequently said.
– How does Kim Jong Eun resemble Kim Il Sung?
In every way.
– Things are bad between North and South right now, what do you think is the reason?
It’s difficult to assess the situation, but it’s just two governments fighting. When parents fight, kids try to avoid it, don’t they?
– Do you know about the sinking of the Cheonan?
Kim Jong Eun is being idolized as the successor and it was propaganda to show what a good leader he is.
– And the Yeonpyeong Island incident?
I believe that was an accident.
– Do you know about the past battles between North and South in the West Sea?
Yes, I have heard a lot about that.
– What do you think about relations between men and women in South Korean TV shows?
Compared to the elegance of love in Chosun, South Korean lovers in TV shows seem rather messy. There are no kiss scenes in Chosun shows; the government stops that kind of stuff ending up in TV shows, so love appears to be quite different in the South. North Koreans, once they meet one person, they stay with them forever, but South Koreans meet one person, then another, it changes in an instant.
In Chosun, films are to teach us how to act; it seems that South Korean films teach the people how to love, too. In Chosun, if you love someone, no matter how bad things get, you stay together. It’s a beautiful kind of love.
– What do you think having watched South Korean TV dramas?
The South Korea of my thoughts has conscience, morality and loyalty. There are many things that should be emulated. Until now I have been taught that South Korean’s lives are very hard and lots of murders occur, but having seen South Korean films, there is conscience, morality and loyalty. And the people seemingly live comfortably.
– Do you know of North Korea kidnapping Japanese people?
No.
What do you think of Japan?
I think it’s a bad country.
– Do you know about nuclear weapons tests?
Yes, I am proud of that.
– But haven’t things gotten worse economically because of nuclear weapons?
I think we must keep our nuclear weapons. I think I must protect my country. We must go down the path set down the 1991 path to unification; neither should wither, and we should manage the stubbornness that exists.
– Do you think things will improve with unification?
Yes. Chosun resources and South Korean agricultural products will circulate, so we surely will have better lives. Chosun has better ideology and South Korea’s economy is good. The bad thing is that Chosun has no freedom at all, and the South has too much.
– In what ways is South Korean ideology bad?
Their freedom is excessive. Too open and free. By only looking to the world and letting many foreigners come and live there, they are losing their sense of identity aren’t they?
